During military rule, from 1980 to 1983, about 650,000 people were arrested. Some were indicted in mass trials that continued long after the military withdrew. Torture, during and before the military takeover, was said by human rights organizations such as Amnesty International to be systematic. Moreover, the rights of organized labor to strike and become politically engaged were severely circumscribed. Most of the imprisoned were from the intellectual strata of society. For Monday Talk, Kayasu described the characteristics of the post-1980 society and explained what may come out of the Ergenekon probe.

Last week Turkish authorities arrested more than 20 people as part of a year-long investigation into the Ergenekon network, an ultranationalist gang planning operations that would pave the way for a military takeover. Political analysts say Ergenekon is part of Turkey’s deep state -- elements in the country’s security forces and state bureaucracy who are ready to take the law into their own hands for the sake of their agenda.

What did you think when you heard on July 2 that more than 20 people, including some generals, had been detained within the scope of the Ergenekon investigation?

If those grand generals had been arrested with the knowledge that this would be big news because it was a first in Turkey, then the prosecutor must have strong evidence against them. I expect that at least 15 or 16 people out of the 25 people recently detained will be arrested. When we look at it from the point of rule of law, if a prosecutor detains a person that means there is strong evidence against that person.

Were you surprised that some high-ranking military officials had been detained?

At the time of the so-called republican rallies last year, it was clear that some people organized those meetings in order to provoke the military to topple the government. Some of the detained people have been mentioned in the media among the coup plotters. When I heard of the arrests, I thought it was a good thing because no one should be above the law. There are allegations against those people, so we will know if they are guilty or not. Being subject to an investigation also opens the way for being acquitted. Indeed, the prosecutors are responsible for investigating such allegations, but they often do not do this in Turkey.

Why don’t they do it?

First, they already have an overload of cases to handle. Second, they are fearful for their careers. They know what happened to me and a few other people. By submitting a petition against a coup leader, I tried to be a good example, but, in reality, it seems like I set a bad example for others because prosecutors have been frightened. Today there is a broad consensus in society that judges and prosecutors do not provide justice.

Is this a valid conviction?

Even former judges and prosecutors and the justice minister complain of various injustices in the country. I see them on television complaining, but they are the ones who are supposed to find solutions to the problems. If they cannot carry out their duties properly they should resign, and at the time of their resignation they should make public statements that they are not able to perform their duties well. The same thing goes for deputies. They should not complain but rather find solutions and execute those solutions; if not, they should not hold a seat.

Do you think Gen. Evren is at ease after hearing of the arrests on July 2?

He is comfortable now but he won’t be if there are results obtained from the Ergenekon probe. And it was not only Evren who was responsible for the Sept. 12 [1980] coup.

Who else was responsible?

Sept. 12 was realized not only by the military men but also by civil servants, the bureaucracy and citizens. So many people were involved in that dirt. This is also why it is very difficult to try the people responsible for the coup. Yes, in Italy an operation against Gladio was successful, but Italy’s democratic tradition is more advanced than Turkey’s. European countries have been the scene of deadly struggles to obtain justice for centuries. In Turkey, justice has been handed down by the forces in the elite of society, not obtained by the citizens themselves. Turkish people do not seek for justice themselves; they think it will be given.

Should there be an effort to find and punish the masterminds behind the Sept. 12 coup?

Definitely, we have an illness today and we are trying to treat it with painkillers. The reason we have today’s coup plotters is because past coup leaders were not tried. The undemocratic process has been more deeply imprinted on society since 1980, and it was strengthened by the 1982 constitution. We have a lifestyle created as a result of the coup. We have a society that was engineered.

What kind of a society is that?

First of all, a quieter society, an obedient youth, a non-inquisitive academy and a judiciary that has become political and partial. A country can overcome its domestic problems if it has justice and it can survive outside threats if it has military power. Turkey has lost at least 15 years due to each military coup as far as technical, industrial and other aspects are concerned. A country that experiences instability due to a military coup cannot attract tourism and investment. And during periods of military coups, corruption increases immensely. You cannot question the coups, let alone question the corruption, during those periods. The rule of law is eroded and some people act is if they are above the law. However, we don’t realize that we live with the rule of law at every step of our lives.

Could you elaborate on this idea?

For example, everybody has to have a first and last name according to the population laws. If somebody receives a private service, the recipient pays and the service should be given. This is required by law. And living within the rule of law is a lifestyle. Legal professionals in particular should be living examples of this idea. For example, in contrast to some of my colleagues, I paid my traffic tickets when I was a prosecutor. People laughed at me but I did not change my attitude. Not paying a traffic ticket is a crime, too. And planning and executing military coups are crimes as well.

Should we expect to have trials of the planners of the Feb. 28 process, which was dubbed a ‘post-modern coup,’ too?

If plotting military coups constitutes a crime then there will be no real order until we punish the perpetrators of such crimes. Attempting or executing military coups are both crimes according to the Turkish Penal Code (TCK). Whoever attempts to carry out coup plans should be punished. Coup plotters do not have to be military people. There may be civilians or police who support coups. They should be punished as well. If there is discrimination among the coup plotters, the principle of equality before the law has been run over. Among the reasons we haven’t been able to punish the coup leaders so far is that some people supported the coups or coup attempts in society. Some people supported the May 27, 1960, coup while others supported the Sept. 12, 1980, coup. If law professionals discriminate amongst the coups depending on which ones they support, then we can’t get anywhere.

Where do we stand today? Do you think society has realized that all military coups are harmful?

On June 21, we saw a variety of people from society demonstrating against military coups. Right-leaning, left-leaning, pious, gays and lesbians, all raised their voices in opposition to military coups. This is a good development.

You are hopeful?

We have seen the sun shining in the morning, why should I think that it will rain today?

You are aware that some of the recent detainees have said they are under arrest because of ‘loving the republic and Atatürk.’ What would you say about that statement?

They are using slogans to gather supporters behind them. But being an Atatürkist cannot be a protective shield from being punished for a crime. A person can be a staunch Atatürkist and commit a crime; on the other hand, a person can be a hater of Atatürk and can be a law abiding citizen. Atatürk is the reason for the existence of this country, but nobody has to be an Atatürkist. Just like nobody has to be religious, pious or God loving. Everybody has freedom of thought; otherwise we cannot talk about the existence of a democracy.

Do you think Turkey may still see some coups?

The history of humanity is full of coups, but we don’t see coups in democratic countries. Turkey has not yet fully digested democracy. Republic does not mean democracy and a republic does not have to be democratic. For example, the Islamic Republic of Iran is a republic but not democratic. But the Kingdom of Sweden is a kingdom yet democratic. In Turkey today, most people are protecting the republic by risking abandoning democracy.

In Turkish coup terms, we have the ‘judicial coup.’ What do you think of the Constitutional Court’s recent decision to overturn the parliamentary legislation to relax a ban on wearing the headscarf at universities?

When it comes to the judges and prosecutors, there are two types in Turkey: general public prosecutors and judges, and high judicial officials. The first group is not free to exercise freedom of speech properly because their appointments have been managed by the Ministry of Justice. So these professionals are often scared of losing their careers and they are pacified. They need to be independent to give unbiased judgments. On the other hand, the high judiciary officials are much more independent so they exercise more freedom of speech, but this does not mean that they are not biased. As in the case of the headscarf decision, without looking at their reason behind it, they seem to be quite biased. But these types of developments have not been unusual in extraordinary periods.

What are the characteristics of this period?

This is a transition period leading toward democracy. Such periods are painful because we have the birth of the state of law. Births are supposed to be painful.

What final thoughts would you like to share?

I want to emphasize the protection and the superiority of rule of law. Everybody should be behind this principle to prevent more conflict in society. If there are acts in violation of laws, the people responsible for these acts should be punished regardless of who they are. This must come first to guarantee people’s welfare. Nations can survive only if they do not compromise on justice. Law should never be a political tool.

[PROFILE]

Sacit Kayasu

First and foremost he is a self-described lover of law. When Kayasu was a child he was deeply affected by the injustice his father faced as he served a prison sentence of 18 months, even though ultimately proven innocent. This experience drew him to law. Following his education in law he worked as an attorney for 12 years, from 1976 to 1988. He then served as a prosecutor until 2000. He was fired and disbarred in 2000 after asking the State Security Court (DGM) in Ankara to indict Gen. Kenan Evren, the leader of the Sept. 12, 1980, coup, for overthrowing a civilian government. No longer able to perform his profession, he worked in various jobs. In 2007, he completed his master’s degree in law at the University of Marmara and is in the process of writing his thesis on “Freedom of Expression of Judges and Prosecutors.” His first book, titled “Günaydın Savcı Bey” (Wake up Prosecutor) was published in June last year, and “Onuncu Köyün Savcısı” (Prosecutor of the 10th Village) will be published this year. He is writing another book, “Savcısını Yiyen Yargı” (The Judiciary That Ate Its Prosecutor). His goal is to be a professor of law in 10 years. He appealed to the European Court of Human Rights in hopes of reversing rulings against him, the most important one being his disbarment.

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