This annual event, which is held on the 24th and 25th of April this year, is marked by ceremonies commemorating the World War I Dardanelles campaign and the Gallipoli battlefields. Together with increasing devotion to the memories of Turkey’s fallen in the fateful Battle of the Dardanelles, Turks are also recognizing the sufferings of the other side of the coin. More than 50,000 Australians served in the Gallipoli Campaign of 1915, and 8,709 never returned from Turkey. Australian Ambassador in Ankara Peter Doyle says that in Australia the loaded meaning of the Dardanelle Campaign accounts for more than mere numbers. “There, we became a real nation,” he says. During our visit to his office in Ankara, he was sitting in front of an Aboriginal drawing wherein desert trees were given human forms and made almost alive, dancing. That same dynamism was present in Ambassador Doyle’s words.

Why is Anzac Day so important for Australians? Australians never had wars before then?

The separate states of Australia decided to come together in 1901, and the Commonwealth of Australia was formed in that year. That is the start of Australia as a separate nation rather than a collection of British colonies. There were battles before. For instance, Australians fought in the Boer War in South Africa, in Sudan and in many other places. But Gallipoli took on -- not only at the time, certainly even after then -- a main importance. Its main importance ... [is] to our sense of national identity. So we had made those soldiers who fought at Gallipoli into heroes, the way we Australians would best like to be seen. The attributes that they displayed during that campaign, courage and resilience and their reverent sense of humor; all those things we still deeply value as Australians and sense as central values of ourselves.

There is a second point to this identity issue. For Australians this was the first time they fought as Australians. In earlier wars they were usually part of a British army. The Gallipoli Campaign was of course under the command of a British officer, but, increasingly through the campaign, Australians fought as Australians under Australian command. It was that transition from British to Australian that gave us the sense of national identity. Some of the ex-soldiers talked about this after the Gallipoli Campaign -- that they went as British-Australians and came back as Australians.

Do you have a special name you use for soldiers? Like we call ours mehmetçik?

Anzac became that name, actually. Literally, Anzac means Australian New Zealand Army Corps. But it has become a word which sums up all these attributes. We use the phrase “in the spirit of Anzac.” So it is really an equivalent of “mehmetçik.”

So in some sense Anzac Day is celebrated, not only commemorated. Am I right?

That is a very important point. It is certainly a commemoration of those who sacrificed themselves for the nation. But yes, it is also a celebration of who we are as a people. I have not yet attended a dawn service at Gallipoli, but I am told that it is a very different feeling between the dawn service, which is a very somber commemoration ... and then later in the day the Australian service at Lone Pine -- more of a celebration of the national identity of who we are. So even within the day that we hold the ceremonies in Turkey, you can see the two aspects of the day.

Do you still have Anzac veterans?

No, unfortunately not. The last Gallipoli veteran died, I think, in 2002. His name was Alec Campbell. And he was a Tasmanian. When he came to Gallipoli he was 16 years old and he lived to, I think, 103. Actually, the [Justice and Development Party] AK Party invited a group of woman relatives of Gallipoli veterans to visit Turkey to take part in the March 18 commemorations this year. And one of the four Australian women who accepted that invitation was the granddaughter of Campbell.

Can we make any comparison between Anzac days observed in France and in Gallipoli? Do you have similar relations with the French?

Not quite to the same extent, I think, is fair to say. But just as there are many people in Turkey [who] when they think of Australia, the first thing they think of is Gallipoli; in France as well many people do remember the contribution of Australians to that battle on the Western front. And as with Turkey, there is great warmth that came into the relations. But I think it is fair to say that [with] Turkey ... [there is] a very special feeling to the relationship, which is not really repeated anywhere in France.

This may be an oft-repeated question, but why were the Anzacs there?

I have been asked this question several times already in the short time I have been in Turkey. Why did Australians come so far to fight against Turks? The answer is quite a simple one. It goes to that sense of imperial obligation. Australians at that time felt that if the British motherland was in peril or in war, then so was Australia. And of course in those days Australia relied on the British for their security as well. So there were lots of good reasons, if you like, strategic as well as emotional ties to the motherland to fight with the British.

Many Australians then were born as British. They saw themselves as British as well as Australian. And so it was natural for them that they would sign up. Also, it seems very odd to us now in retrospect that many of the young Australian men who signed up did so with a sense of adventure. I don’t want to trivialize it, but I think there was this sense of adventure. However it didn’t turn out to be such an adventure as they had thought.

Turks of Turkey have already started to participate in observations of Anzac Day. You have a sizeable Turkish community in Australia also. Do they join in Anzac day observations there?

Absolutely. … First, I will start with the commemorations in Turkey. We noticed over the last few years an increasing number of Turks attending the ceremonies. And that is very welcomed. We actually put on an interpretative program on the night before the dawn service: all sorts of documentaries, live interviews and music. That is designed to provide information in an entertaining way. That helps people understand more about World War I and about the Gallipoli Campaign.

Within Australia the Turkish community is on the verge of being Turkish and Australian. So they can look at Anzac Day from both perspectives. I am not sure if there is anything particular about the way that they commemorate the events of the Gallipoli Campaign or the Çanakkale war, but they are fully Australians already and so they are part of commemorating the event.

This brings us to a point from where we can jump to the issue of integration. Why was Australia more successful than Europe in integrating newcomers?

Well, we are a nation of immigrants. We are a young nation and we regard immigration as an overwhelmingly positive value. Most Australians are either the sons or daughters, or grandsons and granddaughters of immigrants. It is impossible to imagine Australia without immigrants. So our total perspective on the issue is very different from the more settled European countries. Of course in the 19th century we were more British than we are now. But even then we had people from all over the world settling in Australia.

Another key difference is that we always invited people to immigrate to Australia and then to become citizens. So the idea that people will come just for labor and then return to their home countries is alien to us. And the overwhelming majority or people have chosen to do that. Particularly Turkish Australians; almost all have chosen to become Australians.

After the upsurge in terrorism targeting the West, some formerly multiculturalist countries like Netherlands and England started to discuss whether multiculturalism was a good decision at all. Didn’t you have similar discussions?

We had those discussions more in the ‘80s than we do now. I think that there is a broad acceptance in Australia that immigration is a good thing for the country. Not just economically, but in so many cultural, social aspects, we are much richer for inviting people from all over the world to come and join us. Our sense of identity is still evolving. So it is not the same fairly rigid views of what people need to subscribe to in order to become Australian. There is a bit more space for people to decide the way they will become Australian.

People retain a part of their identity of homeland. Whether they are Turkish or Indonesian or Dutch, they will retain a part of that. But we also saw that they take on parts of Australian identity. This is not done by government policy. It is done by osmosis, if you like, with the community around them. In Australia we are very proud of the fact that it happens so well.

Turkish workers went to Australia in the 1960s upon Australian invitation. Do you think in this decision the common heritage of Gallipoli was influential?

Well, I suppose it is a combination of factors. At that time we were at the high time of Australian immigration. In the 1960s most immigrants came from Europe, overwhelmingly from Britain and Ireland, but also from Italy and Greece. And then we looked to Turkey. Of course Turkey was happy to have some people immigrate to Australia. So it was a mutual governmental agreement. And it worked out extremely well. We now have a settled strong Australian Turkish community that makes a strong contribution to the country. There are a number of very successful Australian businessmen of Turkish origin who retain their relations with Turkey, invest here, trade between the two countries.

You are having a photograph exhibition in May in Turkey. Can you give us more information about that?

It is actually about immigration. We have a Turkish-Australian community in Victoria, Australia’s second most populous state. This community decided that they would put together an exhibition that celebrates the 40th anniversary of Turkish immigration to Australia. So it tells the community’s story from the community’s perspective. This exhibition was launched this year at Museum Victoria in Melbourne. We are now going to bring that exhibition to Turkey. We will open in Ankara in May, and we plan to open it in Istanbul in June and then in Çanakkale and in Mersin in September. We hope the exhibition will give people here a very strong sense of the close people-to-people link between Australia and Turkey.

Turkish-Australian economic relations -- are we doing well, or is there more to do?

I think both. Last year we had a 30 percent increase in bilateral trade. This is a very good prospect for the future. However our trade is very narrowly based, mainly minerals and foodstuffs. However there are several exports of Australia to Turkey that don’t really fit into traditional categories. For instance, the big vehicle ferries that go through the Sea of Marmara between İstanbul and Yalova and the southern part of Marmara; those are Australian products. The investments are also underdeveloped. There are some large Australian groups who are interested in Turkish infrastructure businesses, and if they decide to come to Turkey, they may attract other Australian companies as well.

Australian-Turkish economic relations are a little bit victim of Turkey’s success and Australia’s success. Because Turkey’s domestic economy has been doing so well for the last five years or so and because the Turkish entrepreneurial spirit has seen a great deal of success in the Balkans, in Europe more broadly, in Russia, Ukraine, the Middle East and Central Asian republics as well, I think that Turkish businessmen haven’t looked ... far away. Australia missed out of that sense. Likewise, Australia’s success -- we are now [at] seven or eight years of consecutive growth -- of course they do not rival Turkey’s numbers, but still well above the OECD averages; that is underwritten by our trade relations, mainly with the Asian Pacific countries. So just as Turkey is concentrating on neighboring zones, so Australia has been doing. So likewise, the Australian companies haven’t looked at the opportunities here in Turkey.

We have a bilateral joint economic commission, and we are trying to finalize dates now for Mr. Mehmet Şimşek’s [state minister for foreign trade] visit to Australia. It is Australia’s turn to host that commission, and we hope that within the next couple of months he will be able to visit Australia for consultations without the minister of trade, Mr. Simon Crean, on how we might improve and deepen our commercial relations. I also hope that Mr. Şimşek will take with him some of the representatives of Turkish business organizations. This may provide the impetus we need to overcome the obstacle of distance.

Today's Zaman